Peruvian Angels:Spawn to 3 months...and some FAQs

Discus here about fish breeding and fry care.
bmukh
Experts
Experts
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Peruvian Angels:Spawn to 3 months...and some FAQs

Unread postby bmukh » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:50 pm

It is high time I close this journal. Therefore, I am putting all (that I think is relevant) in one post. I have just selected some portions from my earlier thread viewtopic.php?f=46&t=692. My intention is not to hurt anyone, but to ensure that these posts only contain some necessary steps i had taken to breed F1 Peruvian scalares. Therefore, the comments and my responses to them have been mostly deleted. We can then archive this thread after it is locked (if the moderators want it) .
Tank details:

Dimensions: 72 (L) X 21(D) X 18 (H)
Water: 80% RO rest Tap
Keeping the water 'soft' and doing Blackwater: Mostly Almond leaves, but initially have put some commercially available BW extract.
Substrate: Ada Nile sand
Background: Tree trunk, roots and Rocscape customized and made by India Petstore
Hardscape: Plenty of Driftwoods
Filtration: 2217 Eheim and 2203 Eheim (might remove the 2203 later)
Filtration media: Apart from sponzes, ADA Bio Rio and SERA Peat and Newzealand Sphagnum moss
Light: 4 X10 watts LED
Flora: Some floating plants initially, but gave them up soon.
Fauna: WIld caught Peruvian Scalare Angels; some more Apistos.
Other observations: The tank is cycled with water from my existing tank, 2203 filter that was in my existing tank. Fishes added after 1 month of cycling
Parameters: PH 6.4.

3longshot.JPG



First attempt to breed: Result failure
Eggs were there at the side glass. Unfortunately, I had to travel for the next few days. I did remove all other fishes from the tank to another tank except the parents. But when I returned the eggs were gone! My guess (a) immatured parents, most people say that happens the first couple of times , and or (b) parents eat up eggs moment they get startled by any movement! Failed one more attempt and then I made sure that next time (the parents are slightly matured by then) the would be parents will have a separate tank, hidden from plain eyesight, dark water and little disturbance.

So here is my breeding tank details

Size: 18 inch cube
Water: RO, blackwater made with IAL
Filter: Spinge filter attached to an airpump. tank temp: around 25 degrees, maintained through CPU.

Day 1 photos: Egg laying and fanning......

DSC_0032.JPG
DSC_0030.JPG





At the same time, there was an other pair who had spawned. Been aware of (a) how aggressive the parents get towards others and (b) the fries may not survive in the tank, I decided to remove those eggs and raise them separately.

Result: The eggs which were kept with the parents have hatched. Now they are busy removing the small wrigglers from one corner of the tank to the other! The eggs, which were unattended became white and did not hatch...I have identified some (plausible)reasons for this: 1. The water I used was the tank water, without doing any subsequent water change 2. Could not add methylene blue to keep fungus away and most importantly 3. Last night the air pump got turned off (must have accidentally disturbed the electricity connection!). I have not tried again to 'artificially' hatch eggs.

This is where the actual journey begins;

Updates on Scalare Angel breeding:
Tank size: 18 X18X18 bar bottom glass tank
Filtration: Power head
Breeding equipment: One slate resting on the glass at 60 degrees
Light: Low
Day 1 : Eggs are laid on the slate….impossible to count,
Day 3: Approximately after 48-60 hours from the eggs are laid, they hatch (impossible to count again ). The parents move the eggs to a different portion of the tank. The fries are attached to the tank side through their egg sac. One can see the tails are wriggling.
Day 4-7: The parents will try atleast a couple of time to carry the wrigglers in their mouth and stick them at different portions in the tank.
Day 7: The fries are free swimming. I could observe them for about half an hour post free swimming. Counting possible.....guess one, in the morning around 100 fries ! Few things I have noticed are;
(a) the parents still can’t believe that the fries are free swimming, and hence, they are making a desperate attempt to take them in their mouth and make them ‘stick’ against the wall
(b) gradually they are accepting the ‘fate’ and just concentrating on carrying the ones who are straying from the group and putting them back in the group.
(c) the fries gravitate towards the light.

Filtration: The filtration was switched off after the eggs were laid. Will start sponge filter today.

The most critical phase is the first 3 weeks from spawn. Decisions to be made:
1. When to remove the parents?
2. What to feed?
3. Water change?
Feeding: Fed some microworms. Making brine shrimps: I was keenly following http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uNkHPuGaqo&feature=plcp as well as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBF4CfUCVpY&feature=plcp. These are wonderful documentaries. For Brine Shrimp, the best I found, with a success rate is Azoo Artemia Cysts.

A diet of BBS and Micro worms were followed for next 3 weeks (that is upto 4 weeks from spawn)

Water change: (50%) using RO water as replacement and use drip technique to ensure the change in pH is not too rapid.

Day seven onwards managing to hatch Brine Shrimp eggs and feeding the babies......



Some pictures after 8 days from spawn

A4.jpg
A3.jpg
A1.jpg



The parents were separated day 14
Water change. Gradually decreasing from 50% to 25% every week, feeding BBS, siphoning dead fishes from the bottom

Day 30: The fries start looking like baby Angels
Size: Varied...from quarter to half an inch.
Feeding: So far, feeding on brine shrimp, micro worms and micro tubifex.
Water parameters: RO water mostly....40% change every week.

Day 30 onwards....
1. Feeding: Gradually move to non live
2. Water: Move to non RO, tap water




The fries are now put in a grow out tank. there is not much change in the maintenance schedule henceforth.

Day 45 (more than six weeks later).
The stripes are prominent. Living on Tap water...and gradually started on Hikary Flakes, crushed Tetrabits. However, primary diet still is live feed- Artemia and Microfex. Some pics

angel fries.jpg
Single.JPG

From this stage onwards, there isn't any intervention needed. They are perennially hungry, water change 20% every week is good enough. Now just wait for the beauties.....


Day 90.
The fishes are all ready to travel. They have to find new homes.


close1.jpg
6group.JPG


Key points;
Water parameter: Soft
Light: Low. Do not startle the parents
Feed: BBS, microworms are best and almost necessary from free swimming stage to day 45
Water change: start with 50% initially, the gradually settle to 20% per week
Most important: Let them grow, don't tinkle much.....and enjoy!

(Journal Closed) ;) ;)
bappa
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.



User avatar
SCORPIO
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10339
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:01 am
Location: Delhi, India
Contact:

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby SCORPIO » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:55 pm

Nice journal.

Bappa Da, we are a one, no question of hearting. :thumup
“Take up one idea. Make that one idea your life - think of it, dream of it, live on that idea. This is the way to success.”

...................Swami Vivekananda

User avatar
Abhishek
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:18 pm
Location: Bangalore-BTM Layout

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby Abhishek » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:58 pm

This is a best piece of information that can be available at a "single place"!!!

Fully deserved and made it a sticky :)

vijendra_s123
Aspiring Star of AquapetZ!
Aspiring Star of AquapetZ!
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby vijendra_s123 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:03 pm

Awesome documentation Bappada :clp :clp .... Was lucky enough to see all the stages in person..... :)

User avatar
ishaan
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Posts: 1725
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:56 pm
Location: jalandhar,punjab

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby ishaan » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:17 pm

:goodpost Awesome writeup :clap :clap
A collection of mistakes is called experience and experience is the key to success.
Ishaan Pathania
+919041208868

User avatar
Achintya
Rising Star of AquaPetZ!
Rising Star of AquaPetZ!
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:04 pm
Location: Kolkata

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby Achintya » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:16 pm

please lock this thread and delete other comments.use another thread for comments.this is a valuable database for angel spawning...

jack
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:28 pm
Location: Ahmedabad

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby jack » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:16 pm

Abhishek wrote:This is a best piece of information that can be available at a "single place"!!!

Fully deserved and made it a sticky :)



:1
Finally i am Broke but Happy :D

Abhi
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Promising Star of AquaPetZ!
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:28 am
Location: Gurgaon

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby Abhi » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:38 pm

jack wrote:
Abhishek wrote:This is a best piece of information that can be available at a "single place"!!!

Fully deserved and made it a sticky :)



:1


:1 :clp
MTS: Multiple tank syndrome !

himansh
Rising Star of AquaPetZ!
Rising Star of AquaPetZ!
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:29 am

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby himansh » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:30 am

nice documentation.

bmukh
Experts
Experts
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Re: Peruvian Angels: Complete journal (spawn to 3 months)

Unread postby bmukh » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:58 pm

Guys,
Just decided to add some FAQs.
Some FAQs regarding breeding Angels. Answers are through my experience and from other forum. I will update more questions and answers as I come across. Hope this will give you some ideas!
1. How do I sex the Angels?
There is no ‘non expert’ way, only when they are about to bred you can sex them. The female will have a prominent tubing under her
2. Do I need to do anything to make them come into breeding condition/
-not much. A temperature of 26-29 degrees, slightly acidic (pH 6.5) and a place to spawn is good enough
3. Should I give them a separate tank?
Depends. For the first time breeder, you won’t even know when to remove the parents to a separate tank. Once a pair is identified you can separate them. It is always better to do so, but not absolutely necessary provided (look at FAQs 4-6)… However, separating the pair in a dedicated tank has many advantages and makes life much more simpler.
4. Who should be the tank mates during spawn?
Anyone would do, even other Angels as the parents will try and guard the eggs fiercely. But do not have catfish (or any thick armoured plecos) who can be voracious egg devourers!
5. What about placement of tank, lights?
-this is more important. Do not keep the tank anywhere they can be spooked by tank mates or by any movements in the room. Dim light is preferable
6. When do they spawn?
-Typically when there is light, not when the tank is dark.
7. Should I remove the eggs? The parents? Other tank mates?
-In case you have a dedicated breeding tank, remove none. In order of removal from a community tank-other tank mates, followed by parents and last resort eggs.
8. How to set up a breeding/fry growing tank?
A simple 30 gallon tank (with height of 18+ inches) is good for breeding tank, a height of 15+ inches good for raising fries along with parents, a 10 gallon tank is good for fries (days 10-6 weeks). Keep it bare bottom, dimly lit and sponge filter.
9. Have the eggs fertilized?
-You will only know after 24 hours. The ones that have gone white haven’t they rest may have got fertilized. If you have the parents around they will polish of the white eggs
10. My parents are eating the eggs, what to do?
-Be prepared to see the parents eat up the fries during the first couple of spawns. That is common. They will get it right soon. You can try artificial hatching (I never prefer that) or make sure they have a dedicated tank to minimize such instances.
11. I can’t find my ‘wrigglers’ suddenly, where are they?
‘Wrigglers’ are that stage (post 72 hours after spawn) when the hatched eggs are stuck closely together and you can only find tiny wriggling movements of their tails. Parents often remove wrigglers from one place to another many 2-3 times a day. Look where the parents are, you may soon find the wrigglers.
12. When will my fries be free swimming?
Approximately after 7 days.
13. The parents keep on eating some fries…”I saw around 100 yesterday and can only see around 70 today”?
The parents are doing what ought to be done ..they are cleaning up the dead and dying ones so as to ensure the survivors are the fittest.
14. When do I feed the fries?
After they are free swimming. Allow them 6 hours of free swimming and then start feeding.
15. What must I feed? How many times a day?
Freshly hatched (within last 24-36 hours) brine shrimp, Microworms, Daphnia, dried/frozen baby food etc. This is my order of preference (BBS most preferred). Twice a day is enough.
16. How many water changes a day? What amount and how?
20% daily is sufficient. Make sure the change is gradual. Here comes the other advantage of a separate breeding tank—imagine 20% water change of a 120 gallon main tank vis a vis a 20 gallon breeding setup!
17. When must I remove the parents from free swimmers?
Around 2 weeks. Angels are excellent parents. Give them some rest before they start breeding again and spend 24X7 vigil guarding eggs, fries etc. You owe it to them. So let the parents take care of their kids for 2 weeks….it is a great sight too.
18. How long on Brine shrimp? What is the next food on cards?
For 2 weeks. Thereafter gradually start with microfex or other stuff. They will start with most dried feed including tetrabits too.